What Every Fencing Parent Should Know About … The Fencing Referee Point of View

Fencing Thought of the Day: Watching your child lose a 14-14 bout is like dropping an ice cream cone on a hot day. You were about to have something amazing, but instead you are left sweating and sad, with a disappointing mess to clean up.

In a day of NAC bouts, it is possible to have up to 8 or 9 refs in a single day. Someone once told me that a good referee is someone you don’t remember ten minutes after a bout ends. In other words, they come in, ref the bout cleanly and professionally, and then move onto the next bout. Without referees, there are no bouts; without bouts, there is no NAC. The refs, in other words, are the unsung heroes of the NAC. (Irrelevant question: if there were a ref hero song, what would it be?)

I have seen Hadley fence well over a thousand bouts, which means that I have seen somewhere close to that number of people ref those bouts. I’ve always wanted a little bit more insight into the referee perspective. So I caught up with Fen Tamulonis, a long-time practice partner of Hadley’s at DC Fencers. They fenced the last bout of the day so often that eventually someone showed me how to shut down and lock up the club, because they got tired of waiting for Fen and Hadley to finish their practice bouts. In addition to being a late-night fencing aficionado, Fen also is a frequent NAC ref who graciously agreed to answer a few questions to give the perspective of fencing from a referee perspective. I hope you find this as illuminating as I did.

How long have you been reffing?

I have been refereeing for about 14 years. I currently hold an N2 in Epee, an R1 in foil, and currently do not have any rating in Sabre. Being an N2 referee means a ref has demonstrated competency to work national-level events. The process from getting my referee rating to becoming an N2 took about 10 years, and I am hoping to get an N1 soon! Having an N1 would mean I have reached the top of U.S. Ratings for referees. This would set up the next step, which would be hopefully obtaining an FIE license so that I can referee international events.

So how many bouts would that be?

Oh boy. Well, assuming seven-person pools of 21 bouts each, and about 10 or so DE bouts per event per day … I mean, you can do the math. But probably, thousands.

Why do you ref?

A couple of reasons. First and foremost, I believe in helping the fencing community. This starts by establishing a good rapport with all fencers at tournaments so they feel like they are enjoying themselves. Second, it is to increase my own understanding, as a fencer, of the rules so that I can advocate for myself during bouts. Finally, being a NAC ref helps offset the cost of fencing gear and attending tournaments, although that is truly a backseat reason compared to the first two.

What is the best thing about reffing a NAC?

I think the best part of refereeing NACs is the amount of talent in both the referee cadre and in the fencers. Having the privilege to referee some of the best fencers in the country, if not the world, is truly an amazing experience. Also it also provides me with plenty of ideas for my own fencing!

The worst?

Worst? Probably the travel. Also, the competitiveness of some of the coaches. Because there is a lot at stake at NACs, coaches (and fencers) tend to be argumentative when compared to local and some regional events.

Sometimes the length of the tournaments can be an issue. NACs in my personal experience are pretty well run. Local and regional events are where I have bad experiences regarding tournament length. It is not uncommon at local or regional events to start refereeing at 8:00 am and finishing at 8:00 pm. I think the latest I have refereed was until about midnight.

What are the most common misunderstandings of the rules you see fencers make?

I mainly referee epee, so I can really only speak authoritatively about that. With that being said, I think the rule with the most common misunderstanding is passing or corps-a-corps calls. Fencers, especially at higher levels (and also including myself when I am fencing), tend to argue that a particular touch should or should not count based on when they believe the action started. But as a fencer, you really only have your point of view. You cannot see the entire action as the referee can.

Are there other common mistakes?

I mean, it’s a silly mistake, but CHECK YOUR TIP! Missing tip screws are the most completely avoidable card. Same with a popped wire.

Do you ever see fencers forget what period they are in? Or miss time running out? Or forgot many times P-cards have been issued?

All the time. Even referees can forget what period we are in. This is why referees should mark down those bout management things on the scoresheet.

At NACs, most fencers do not miss the time running out, since the box has the time on it. But sometimes in local events where boxes don’t have time, I have seen fencers not know the time. P-cards are extremely common, but it depends on the event. In DIV 1 Men’s epee, you are probably not going to see too many P-cards. But in Y-14 Women’s epee, almost every DE, I give a P-card. Usually fencers know how many P-cards they have, because the referee marks it on the scoresheet, but I have seen bouts end because the fencer did not know the rules on how many P-cards it took to issue a P-black or how many P-cards had been issued.

What advice do you have for fencers to know when it is appropriate to call the bout committee?

The key to know when to call bout committee is whether the action in question is an application of the rules and NOT a referee’s subjective call (statement of fact). Two good examples. Suppose Fencer A goes past his own end line. The rules (T.34) stipulate that Fencer B will be awarded a touch. Let’s say, for whatever, reason Fencer A went past the end line but the referee did not award the touch to Fencer B. Fencer B would have a strong case and probably should appeal to the bout committee. Conversely, suppose the referee saw (i.e., subjectively) Fencer B leave the strip before Fencer A started a riposte or a scoring action. In this case, unless you are on a video strip, you can argue, but you shouldn’t call the bout committee. If you do, the bout committee will not reverse a call regarding what the referee saw and the referee will probably give a card for unjustified appeal because Fencer B leaving the strip before Fencer A’s action started is a completely subjective call. T.172 does a good job of explaining the difference between a “statement of fact” and an “application of the rules.”

What is the most common yellow card you give out? Most common red card?

By a wide margin, the most common yellow card is for non-conforming equipment. This is usually in epee, for missing a tip screw or failing the weight or shim test. The most “action” card is, I think, for turning your back to your opponent.

For red cards, the most common card is probably the second infraction of the non-conforming equipment, because a second yellow card turns into a red card. As for “immediate” red cards, I think that would probably have to be bell guard to the mask. For this rule, it is important to remember that intent does not matter. Any blow to the mask with the bell guard, even unintentional (maybe too high of a fleche that missed), still should be given a red card.

Black? How often? Most common?

So, this is a difficult question for me to answer, because I have never given a black card (other than P-black). But I have certainly seen black cards given. In most NACs, from my understanding, there is usually more than one black card given. Most of these black cards are just the apex of a series of unfortunate events. You fenced poorly, you think the referee made a bad call, whatever the case might be, and then, boom! A mask goes flying or obscenities are made to the referee or opponent. Easy black card. Believe it or not, though, it often is either the coach or another spectator getting the black card.

Do fencers, fencing parents, or coaches create the most problems?

This is an interesting question. Honestly, it depends on what the problem is. With all the respect in the world, I would say that fencers can be the most annoying, and I am totally speaking for myself as well. Some fencers, especially in the higher levels, really think they know all the rules. But the fact of the matter is, as a fencer, you are not seeing the whole picture. That is why the referee is there. I will say that fencers should not be afraid to pose questions to the referee, but make sure it is a reasonable question.

Coaches, on the other hand, probably create the most problems. And most of the time, it’s really not worth making a big deal. The real issue is when coaches know they are wrong but they keep arguing anyway. I once had a coach ask me to explain why his fencer did not get the touch. I explained that the fencer went off the side of the strip before his fencer started his scoring action. The coach then argued that the distance was wrong, then argued that his fencer’s blade was not working, each time getting more and more upset. Personally, I do not mind coaches asking questions respectfully or questioning an interpretation of the rules. But yelling at the referee, or just harping on the point over and over after the call has been made and explained, is never the correct way to get a ref’s attention or to change a call.

As for parents, issues mostly arise when they think something was unfair. While I totally respect their frustrations, chances are there is nothing I can do. You can’t go back and re-do a bout or even a point.

One thing I think helps tense situations is, as long as we are not on a video strip, explaining to the fencer or coach that if we were on a video strip, I would use video, but because we are not, we have to go with what I saw. I also find that having a brief conversation after the bout helps.

What should fencers do if they feel they are the victim of a bad call?

First, they should check the rules and see if they are correct. Second, fencers (and parents and coaches) need to remember that referees are humans, too. Of course we make mistakes, but it’s never on purpose. Finally, remember, there is always another tournament.

Do college coaches ask about fencers and their attitudes on strip?

I have personally not been asked by a college coach about the attitude of a certain fencer. But I do know that coaches, when scouting, look at the attitude of prospects. If a fencer is not respectful to referees or to their coach, it is certainly a note they will make and will influence their recruiting decisions.

What advice do you have for fencing parents? When dealing with refs? In general?

Parents are a critical part of fencing, but sometimes I see parents unsure of what to do. I think my biggest advice is to cheer on your kid, but not be negative. Remember, fencing is stressful. The last thing a kid will want is to be brought down by their mom or dad.

Next, parents need to remember that they are not referees or coaches. There is a reason parents pay coaches and why referees are paid. I would say parents should be familiar with the rules. Maybe not every rule, but the ones where they can play a role. One of the most important is understanding the equipment requirements. T.71 in the rulebook covers this. At every tournament, a fencer is required to have at least 2 body cords and 2 weapons. These also must be readily available and not hanging out in a fencing bag that’s all the way across the convention center.

It is pretty common that I will have fencers show up to a strip with a single weapon and a single body cord. Those two items might last the entire tournament, but when (not if) it fails, you want to have backups ready to go. As a fencing parent, you should be certain that your fencer brings enough weapons to satisfy the rules and bring them to the strip. When I fence, I make sure that the bag I bring to the strip has at least 4 weapons and 4 body cords.

A quick story on this. About two years ago, I was refereeing a bout and a body cord of a fencer stopped working. When I asked where his other body cord was, he said it was in his bag ... which happened to be halfway across the convention center. I said, “run go get it.” But when the fencer got to his bag, I saw him start talking to a friend. When he finally got back, about 5 minutes later, I had to give him a card for delay of bout as well as a card for a failing body cord. While referees want to give the best experience to the fencer, we have to keep the competition moving. The lesson here is to always have backup equipment on the strip, ready to go, and don’t keep the referee (and your opponent) waiting.

What advice do you have for fencers (or fencing parents) who don’t understand why you made a call?

First, if you have a question, ask your fencer or the coach; they probably know the rule. I am fine talking about rules with fencers or fencing parents. If you have a question for the referee, feel free to approach us when we are not busy, such as after a bout or after pools. You should probably keep the conversation brief, because referees have to keep the competition moving.

Second, remember that any spectator – and this includes parents – can be given cards. Spectator cards start at yellow and stay with you the entire tournament, not just that bout or pool. If you get a second spectator card, it is a black card and you are required to leave the facility. Not only would this look bad for the parent, but your child will be without his or her parent for the day, which could distract the fencer from concentrating on fencing.

Third, keep in mind that it is important to remain calm. I know sometimes it can be really frustrating to see a call you don’t like, but it is so important to remain calm. There will be other tournaments.

Finally, learn basic armoring, including how to put a tip screw in, how to use the test weight and use shims, and how to clean tips. I have seen parents spend a lot of money on repairs that are easy to fix and that the vendors really do not want to deal with. Not only will this save money, but it will save time and will make you feel involved with your kid’s fencing. Plus you can sometimes fix weapons in between bouts, which can be handy. They will appreciate it.

Can you explain the rules about why refs can’t look at parent videos?

Personally, while it would be great to have video for every single bout, it’s just not practical. A ref is not supposed to ever make a call based on video that is not the official video from a video review camera. Rules T.49 and T.62 are the best rules around video. Long story short, by the rules, a video used to make an official call must be made using official video. Parent videos are not official.

There are a number of good reasons for these rules. First, proper video reviews take time. If referees could or, more importantly, were obligated to watch shaky phone videos every time anybody had a disagreement about a call, pools would never finish. Second, think of the reason why parents would want us to look at their video; it’s probably because they think we made a bad call. Involving parents in disputes like this on the side of the strip is not the right time for parents to be involved. Third, technology. Professional video replay has the ability to go frame by frame and is recorded from a central, non-subjective point of view that gives the most objective video to allow the best call to be made.

That being said, I have seen one use of parent videos, which does not involve making an official call. This is to verify if the score was correct or the time in a bout, usually when the box is accidentally turned off or unplugged. But this would be just to correct a technical error and not to make an official call.

Do you ref sabre or foil? If so, how do you deal with right of way calls? Disputes regarding the same?

I do have a rating in foil and enjoy refereeing foil. Right of way calls are interesting. Most of the time, once you learn the right of way rules and get experience, the calls are easy and there is not much contention. The issues that arise are when the actions are messy, which can make it hard to see who has the blade or the right of way. That’s why, in my personal opinion, younger foil events are the hardest to referee. (I don’t ref sabre, so I can’t speak to that.) At younger ages, a lot of the actions are messy, making right of way calls harder. Once you get in Div 1, while it is much faster, the actions are mostly clean.

One interesting thing about refereeing right of way calls, as compared to epee, is how coaches and fencers adapt to the referee. One referee might have a slightly different threshold for what a parry is. One referee might favor harder parries or if the blade is straight first. Coaches and fencers will generally ask something like, “did you not see a parry” or “wasn’t that my attack?” So long as I explain what I saw, most fencers and coaches will adapt to my explanation. Ideally, of course, there is a standard threshold, but referees are humans. And if the reffing is consistent on both sides, then the ref is doing his or her job.

Anything else to add?

I just want to take a moment to say that referees really do want the best outcome in a bout. We are not monsters – really. Treat your referee with respect and we will show respect back. A little respect goes a long way.

Finally, thank you for reaching out. I hope your readers find this interesting. If you ever see me at a tournament, feel free to say hi and chat. Just make sure I am not busy! Thirty or more bouts in a day does not leave a lot of down time.

So, thanks, Fen! Hopefully that provides some needed perspective. But let me add three points:

First, at the last NAC, you may have noticed "respect the referees" signs these scattered around the venue. They are not randomly put out because someone at USA Fencing likes to show off her design skills – they are aimed at the (fortunately very) small portion of fencers, coaches, and fencing parents who don’t respect the important role that referees play in making tournaments happen. You may not know it, but USA Fencing does have a Black Card Committee, and yes, black cards can be given out to fencing parents. Don’t be the type of parent that tests the limits of when a black card can be given out.

Second, it may seem like the ref’s hand signals and your blood pressure are directly connected, and that the ref is finishing each hand signal by secretly sticking a bunch of pins into a voodoo doll that happens to look just like you. But understand that the refs are just doing their best to have a fair outcome where wins and losses are determined by the fencers, and not by any incorrect calls. Even if a mistake happens – and they sometimes do – they are unintentional and part of the sport. If you see referees make mistakes in Super Bowl games watched by well over 100 million people, why do you think that there won’t be the occasional mistake at a NAC? This is why once you reach the top 16 at NACs, there generally is a replay option for close calls.

Finally, as a fencing parent, don’t get involved with reffing disputes. You may have visions of coming in like Indiana Jones, whip cracking as you fight off the Evil Ref. But in reality, you will only add chaos and will not change the result. So don’t be the parent who thinks he knows the rules better than the ref. Because you probably don’t. And even if you did, you shouldn’t be involved. So while you may feel like you could replace the ref with a Magic Eight Ball or a Ouija Board and get better results, in reality, the ref has trained for the tournament, just like your child did. Leave the disputes with the referees to the fencer and the coach. If it makes you feel better, you can consult the spirits or your own Magic Eight Ball later.